Comments for S.A.F.E. Firefighter http://safefirefighter.com Safe, Aggressive, Fundamentally-sound & Efficient Sun, 25 Jul 2010 01:06:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by Captain C. Garniewicz http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2192 Captain C. Garniewicz Sun, 25 Jul 2010 01:06:25 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2192 Lou, Great article to discuss. I'm with you, by the numbers. I will add a little something for a side note though. If the Engineer and Officer are comfortable with each other and have the same expectations regarding flow, I think a deviation from the book would be acceptable. I know as a Company Officer, my thoughts on water need/availability are part of my size up. If I plan on one GPM and get another, there is the possibilitynthat my attack will not go as expected. Train, train, train with your crews. Once everyone is on the same page, there should be very few suprises based on crew errors/miscommunications. Lou,
Great article to discuss. I’m with you, by the numbers. I will add a little something for a side note though. If the Engineer and Officer are comfortable with each other and have the same expectations regarding flow, I think a deviation from the book would be acceptable. I know as a Company Officer, my thoughts on water need/availability are part of my size up. If I plan on one GPM and get another, there is the possibilitynthat my attack will not go as expected. Train, train, train with your crews. Once everyone is on the same page, there should be very few suprises based on crew errors/miscommunications.

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by K.Stokes http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2061 K.Stokes Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:55:43 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2061 Good discussion here. Taking one good engine company ops class will open your eyes to these concepts. My personal opinion is this: leave the automatics on the front trash lines and give me a 15/16" smooth bore on one preconnect and a 175 @ 75 fixed combo on the other. You now have the best of both worlds and can pump the lines the same to get the same flow from both nozzles. Oh, and the pistol grips can stay on the trash lines too. All they do for interior operations is promote poor hose handling technique. And we really have to get away from thinking the 2 1/2" is a defensive line. Pump the lines for what the numbers say you need and train to handle and USE the pressure and flow on the other end. Most of the people I have seen complain of too high pump pressures are the ones with the worst form for hose handling. Good discussion here. Taking one good engine company ops class will open your eyes to these concepts. My personal opinion is this: leave the automatics on the front trash lines and give me a 15/16″ smooth bore on one preconnect and a 175 @ 75 fixed combo on the other. You now have the best of both worlds and can pump the lines the same to get the same flow from both nozzles. Oh, and the pistol grips can stay on the trash lines too. All they do for interior operations is promote poor hose handling technique. And we really have to get away from thinking the 2 1/2″ is a defensive line. Pump the lines for what the numbers say you need and train to handle and USE the pressure and flow on the other end. Most of the people I have seen complain of too high pump pressures are the ones with the worst form for hose handling.

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by Canuck http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2038 Canuck Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:53:44 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2038 Very good discussion. I have been in the fire service for around 18yrs and it is clear to me that the "numbers" are not necessarily correct. Friction loss charts are quite conservative so the best solution is to check the friction loss of your particular hose then the pump operator has real numbers to work with. Give the nozzle what they need from the start. Those of us that think combination nozzles are the only way need to try a smooth bore alongside flowing the same water. The smooth bore is going to be easier to handle but is not as versatile as the combination. They both have their place. Very good discussion. I have been in the fire service for around 18yrs and it is clear to me that the “numbers” are not necessarily correct. Friction loss charts are quite conservative so the best solution is to check the friction loss of your particular hose then the pump operator has real numbers to work with. Give the nozzle what they need from the start. Those of us that think combination nozzles are the only way need to try a smooth bore alongside flowing the same water. The smooth bore is going to be easier to handle but is not as versatile as the combination. They both have their place.

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by Paul Shapiro http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2033 Paul Shapiro Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:10:35 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2033 BC, I respectively disagree with you on the gating down of the nozzle operation. I have done extensive flow tests on this topic and have proven that gating down a nozzle to reduce nozzle reaction can still produce a good flowing stream. Of course it depends on the initial flow that you are starting with. If you start with 100 gpm then of course gating down will not work but do you really need to gate down low flows in the first place? What about the FDNY 1-3/4" flow of 185 GPM. This is a great flow for interior work and is definately set up for maximum flow. You know as well as I do that a 120 to 150 GPM flow also works well in most situations. With that being said if a 185 gpm flow had to be gated down for what ever reason and still provide a working stream, based on my flow testing , the flow would still be in the 120 to 150 gpm range. Gating down to me is better than getting the snot beat out of you and having to shut down in a fire fight. As I said in my prior post , nozzle traing is very important in having a sucessful operation. BC, I respectively disagree with you on the gating down of the nozzle operation. I have done extensive flow tests on this topic and have proven that gating down a nozzle to reduce nozzle reaction can still produce a good flowing stream. Of course it depends on the initial flow that you are starting with. If you start with 100 gpm then of course gating down will not work but do you really need to gate down low flows in the first place? What about the FDNY 1-3/4″ flow of 185 GPM. This is a great flow for interior work and is definately set up for maximum flow. You know as well as I do that a 120 to 150 GPM flow also works well in most situations. With that being said if a 185 gpm flow had to be gated down for what ever reason and still provide a working stream, based on my flow testing , the flow would still be in the 120 to 150 gpm range. Gating down to me is better than getting the snot beat out of you and having to shut down in a fire fight. As I said in my prior post , nozzle traing is very important in having a sucessful operation.

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by Old School http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2017 Old School Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:23:33 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2017 Being on the pipe for many years this has always been a hot topic. The simple solution is switch the attack crews and engineers up once in awhile so they all get a feel of what both sides are like. They then work much better together. Give me a 2 1/2 with about 120 PSI and I'm happy as a clam. I know they go hand in hand but I'm more concerned with volume not pressure. Being on the pipe for many years this has always been a hot topic. The simple solution is switch the attack crews and engineers up once in awhile so they all get a feel of what both sides are like. They then work much better together. Give me a 2 1/2 with about 120 PSI and I’m happy as a clam. I know they go hand in hand but I’m more concerned with volume not pressure.

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by BC http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-2012 BC Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:56:27 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-2012 Too Much Todo About Nothing. Kinks; they are in the line regardless of NP or PDP. Deploy the line correctly and you will reduce the kinks in a line. But everyone chases kinks, including the chief.Overcoming the BTU's being produced with GPM's delivered by trained firefighters through the correct size line,with the correct pressure for the nozzle used is what puts out fires. As for controling nozzle reaction on automatics by the "dents designed into the nozzle", Give me a break! If you gate the nozzle down, you reduce the GPM's being delivered. Not a good thing! The nozzle is either opened or closed when in an active firefight!Gate the nozzle during salvage and overhaul. As for the officers position on the line; beside or slightly in front of the nozzleman to direct the stream and LEAD the company. My opinions. Stay Safe, FTM-PTB Too Much Todo About Nothing. Kinks; they are in the line regardless of NP or PDP. Deploy the line correctly and you will reduce the kinks in a line. But everyone chases kinks, including the chief.Overcoming the BTU’s being produced with GPM’s delivered by trained firefighters through the correct size line,with the correct pressure for the nozzle used is what puts out fires. As for controling nozzle reaction on automatics by the “dents designed into the nozzle”, Give me a break! If you gate the nozzle down, you reduce the GPM’s being delivered. Not a good thing! The nozzle is either opened or closed when in an active firefight!Gate the nozzle during salvage and overhaul. As for the officers position on the line; beside or slightly in front of the nozzleman to direct the stream and LEAD the company. My opinions. Stay Safe, FTM-PTB

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by The Prez http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-1999 The Prez Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:44:01 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-1999 BCGATTI I couldn't agree more. As a 26 year volunteer I have been on all sides of the nozzles and hoses. I mainly drive/pump now and I have the full trust of the rest of the guys on the dept. TFT's have greatly reduced the nozzle jump, although I start with 150 psi on our 1 1/2" lines, but it also depends on how much hose is strung out and what we have for an incident. We serve a huge rural area and we get everything from sheds to barns to houses and lots of trailer houses. The biggest thing is to get the guys to trust the TFT's and that takes TRAINING!!!! BCGATTI I couldn’t agree more. As a 26 year volunteer I have been on all sides of the nozzles and hoses. I mainly drive/pump now and I have the full trust of the rest of the guys on the dept. TFT’s have greatly reduced the nozzle jump, although I start with 150 psi on our 1 1/2″ lines, but it also depends on how much hose is strung out and what we have for an incident. We serve a huge rural area and we get everything from sheds to barns to houses and lots of trailer houses. The biggest thing is to get the guys to trust the TFT’s and that takes TRAINING!!!!

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by safefirefighter http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-1995 safefirefighter Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:10:11 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-1995 Hey Colin, Good to hear from you and thanks for the comments. I think that the advantage of reduced pressures is that the nozzle firefighter may not need the backup firefighter checking his prostate. That being said, the backup firefighter (or officer) can hang back on the line a little and help manage kinks as the line advances through the building. Also, my opinion is that the triple stack doesn't lend itself to a nice, straight, kink free line stretch. By it's design, it drops into a pile of kinks. With low pressure nozzles (fog or smooth bore) the stretch may be the most important factor to reducing the kinks. Sorry for the long reply and thanks again. Jeebs Hey Colin,

Good to hear from you and thanks for the comments. I think that the advantage of reduced pressures is that the nozzle firefighter may not need the backup firefighter checking his prostate. That being said, the backup firefighter (or officer) can hang back on the line a little and help manage kinks as the line advances through the building. Also, my opinion is that the triple stack doesn’t lend itself to a nice, straight, kink free line stretch. By it’s design, it drops into a pile of kinks. With low pressure nozzles (fog or smooth bore) the stretch may be the most important factor to reducing the kinks. Sorry for the long reply and thanks again.

Jeebs

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by safefirefighter http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-1994 safefirefighter Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:58:36 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-1994 Hey Paul, That's a good point. There has been a resurgence of the smooth bores as well as the growing popularity of low pressure fogs (see Colin's comment below). Thanks for the feedback. Matt Hey Paul,

That’s a good point. There has been a resurgence of the smooth bores as well as the growing popularity of low pressure fogs (see Colin’s comment below). Thanks for the feedback.

Matt

]]> Comment on Food for Thought: Pump Pressures for Attack Lines by safefirefighter http://safefirefighter.com/2010/07/12/food-for-thought-pump-pressures-for-attack-lines/comment-page-1/#comment-1993 safefirefighter Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:56:05 +0000 http://safefirefighter.com/?p=282#comment-1993 Hey Chief, Thanks for the tip. You're right about how quickly we typically bleed the line... it definitely requires the D/O to pay attention. Another tip is to straddle the line and CRACK the nozzle after you call for water (while putting on your mask). It pushes the air out as it comes to the nozzle which could also accomplish what you were suggesting. Thanks again. Matt Hey Chief,

Thanks for the tip. You’re right about how quickly we typically bleed the line… it definitely requires the D/O to pay attention. Another tip is to straddle the line and CRACK the nozzle after you call for water (while putting on your mask). It pushes the air out as it comes to the nozzle which could also accomplish what you were suggesting. Thanks again.

Matt

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